New graphics engine

[taoroot]

Is there a new game engine in consideration for the future updates of ZUSI 3 (4)? For example, Unreal Engine or Unity?

[JonathanPilborough]

Engines like Unreal and Unity are a whole ecosystem. You don't update to them, you use them from Day 1 or not at all.

The main source of income for Zusi, so far as I am aware, is professional driver training simulators, and the graphics are adequate for this task. I somehow doubt the developers of Zusi want to be in the business of mass market game production anyhow.

There is still huge features to be added to Zusi 3 such as shunting and handling of UTM zone changes. I can't imagine graphics updates would be a major feature for a long time.

[Michael Springer]

If I remember correctly, there was some time ago in the german section a thread... and the conclution was, that these engines didn't provide all needed physical parameter for the simulation. Therefore a use of this engines is not possbile.

[taoroot]

If I remember correctly, the Diesel Railcar Simulator uses the Unity engine just for graphics (kind of like a frontend?), and physics and other stuff is custom coded, so I think it might be possible in the end.

[F. Schn.]

There had been considerations, but it's not planed, neither yet nor in the nearer future. However, it did not seem to be completely imposible.

[Tomas9970]

As far as I can tell, anything related to Zusi graphics is pushed back in favor of simulator features. For example there are options for dynamic shadows that you can set in the 3D editor but the feature has never been implemented. Instead, we are getting improvements to ETCS, implementation of KWB and Crocodile (for the LGV) and other goodies that I'm not aware of. You yourself will probably want LS06 and MIREL implementation at some point if you reach a line faster than 100 km/h and so on. It's just that development resources are scarse and there's so much demand for sim features, probably also from the professional customers.

Also I don't understand the race towards using a high-end game engine for the sake of better visuals because in my opinion, art direction beats visual fidelity and you can make good art in just about any engine or game sdk. Just look at some old games and tell me if they look bad because I don't think they do. Not to mention that we have like 20 more years of advancements in development tools to benefit from. Yeah, it's somewhat harder to make things work unlike in a modern engine but it's very doable with correct techniques.

Last but not least, there's also the requirement of mod support. Zusi 3 has basically non-compiled game files so everything is readable and can be looked at and edited by anyone at any point down the line. Commercial game engines just don't provide that. Yes, there is the (working) possibility that many games do where you can download a separate SDK that includes all of the raw source files but it's still one of the things to consider because Zusi just wouldn't exist the way it does now without good modding support.

Not trying to sound harsh but that's just my opinion on why move to UE4 (or UE5?) is overrated.

[Jan]

Also I don't understand the race towards using a high-end game engine for the sake of better visuals because in my opinion, art direction beats visual fidelity and you can make good art in just about any engine or game sdk. Just look at some old games and tell me if they look bad because I don't think they do. Not to mention that we have like 20 more years of advancements in development tools to benefit from. Yeah, it's somewhat harder to make things work unlike in a modern engine but it's very doable with correct techniques.

I'm not asking for a fully modern high-end game engine, but in theory the level of OMSI (or LOTUS, I presume, though I've only ever played the former) would be nice – AFAIK that one uses a home-brewed graphics engine, too, but it is a little bit more advanced than Zusi in terms of possible graphics effects – dynamic lights, light maps, shadows, reflections, mirrors and particle effects (and proper weather, too, not just fog).

Yeah, it's somewhat harder to make things work unlike in a modern engine but it's very doable with correct techniques.

Some limitations remain more fundamental, though – no dynamic lighting (okay, railway headlights typically are weaker than car headlights, but it still impacts the readability of signs at night), no particle effects (while steam loco physics themselves are on the horizon what with the upcoming more flexible plugin support, you won't be able to see any exhaust), no weather except for fog (with the upcoming extended plugin support, I guess you could at least try re-implementing that old BVE4/openBVE approach of simply overlaying rain drops over the cab window with some corresponding sound effects plus animated wipers ).

Though yeah, I acknowledge the resource constraints of Carsten and the fact that something like support for coupling/uncoupling/shunting is of course an exciting and much missed feature, too.

[F. Schn.]

Neither weather nor particle effects nor special signage treatment (immitate reflection) are too difficult, even in a custom engine. However, both are still effort and therefore they are unlikely, except if a commercal customer requires it - and it's not too likly that this will happen or has happend.
Shadows are also possible even in an old DirectX9 custom engine. However, it is more difficult and more unlikely that it will be requried. The major rest of the graphical effects are unneccessary, unless perfectly implemented and usable for surfaces.

[taoroot]

There had been considerations, but it's not planed, neither yet nor in the nearer future. However, it did not seem to be completely imposible.

Understood, thank you very much for information.

[taoroot]

As far as I can tell, anything related to Zusi graphics is pushed back in favor of simulator features. For example there are options for dynamic shadows that you can set in the 3D editor but the feature has never been implemented. Instead, we are getting improvements to ETCS, implementation of KWB and Crocodile (for the LGV) and other goodies that I'm not aware of. You yourself will probably want LS06 and MIREL implementation at some point if you reach a line faster than 100 km/h and so on. It's just that development resources are scarse and there's so much demand for sim features, probably also from the professional customers.

Also I don't understand the race towards using a high-end game engine for the sake of better visuals because in my opinion, art direction beats visual fidelity and you can make good art in just about any engine or game sdk. Just look at some old games and tell me if they look bad because I don't think they do. Not to mention that we have like 20 more years of advancements in development tools to benefit from. Yeah, it's somewhat harder to make things work unlike in a modern engine but it's very doable with correct techniques.

Last but not least, there's also the requirement of mod support. Zusi 3 has basically non-compiled game files so everything is readable and can be looked at and edited by anyone at any point down the line. Commercial game engines just don't provide that. Yes, there is the (working) possibility that many games do where you can download a separate SDK that includes all of the raw source files but it's still one of the things to consider because Zusi just wouldn't exist the way it does now without good modding support.

Not trying to sound harsh but that's just my opinion on why move to UE4 (or UE5?) is overrated.

Not talking about having everything in UE or Unity. The idea was more about the Diesel Railcar Simulator, where the Unity is providing only graphics engine and everything else is custom. This way, the ZUSI would be able to keep the structure of files and the UE/Unity engine would just render the graphics content differently. But again, it was just a thought.

[VMPP]

Just adding my 2 cents....

I would say that the best world, would be to have all Zusi's running capabilities, display, timetables, LZB, PZB, etc. etc. etc. running on the TSW Graphics.

On a more real note, my complaint would be the very loooong loading times.
Sometimes I can wait for more than 5 mins to get the route loaded.
And on some timetables, I can add some extra 5 minutes, even under time-lapse, to get into my chosen train...
Also, on some more loaded routes, like the hamburg-kassel, it really takes a toll on the processor. Usually passing Maschen, the movie turns into a slide show!!!

[Vern]

Just adding my 2 cents....

I would say that the best world, would be to have all Zusi's running capabilities, display, timetables, LZB, PZB, etc. etc. etc. running on the TSW Graphics.

On a more real note, my complaint would be the very loooong loading times.
Sometimes I can wait for more than 5 mins to get the route loaded.
And on some timetables, I can add some extra 5 minutes, even under time-lapse, to get into my chosen train...
Also, on some more loaded routes, like the hamburg-kassel, it really takes a toll on the processor. Usually passing Maschen, the movie turns into a slide show!!!

I thought it was just me with the loading times! But yes the three stages you have to go through before actually driving can mean it is 10 minutes before you start driving. That's a significant period off your available driving time, particularly bearing in mind we still have no way of saving a run in progress.

[JonathanPilborough]

There are a few things you can do to help with that:

• Very Large timetables often have a reduced version which omits some route modules and trains for quicker loading
• The ZusiStart program can create an "on the fly" temporary timetable containing only the train you wish to drive and others whose timetable overlaps with yours(the next version of ZusiStart will have English translations)
• Within Zusi you can optionally not load less important trains(I'm not sure how effective this is in practice)