Speed Limits and Signals

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Valdez
Beiträge: 6
Registriert: 22.10.2020 21:02:01

Speed Limits and Signals

#1 Beitrag von Valdez »

Hello / Guten Tag

I’ve been driving Zusi 3 for a couple of days and really enjoying it - it’s nice to have a realistic driving simulation. I’m not great with German but Google Translate has been helping me out and the English manual is good too.

So far I’ve been mostly driving the 193 on Lehrte-Hamburg, and I have a couple of questions about speed limits:

First, leaving a freight yard with signals Hp2 / Vr1 (Go 40km/h, Expect Proceed), and a line speed from the Book or EBuLa of 120km/h.

When can I increase from 40 to 120? Is it when the back end of the train has passed the (Asig) or Junction (Y)? or must I wait until reaching the next Hp1 signal?

My second question is to do with braking and PZB. I was travelling at 120km/h in a freight train (70 PZB mode) approaching a signal Vr0 - the previous signal was Hp1. At the Vr0 I removed the power and applied significant braking (all of the Kn gauge on the 193 was yellow). My aim was to slow to <70 in the PZB curve and continue slowing to 30 for the 500hz. I did acknowledge the Vr0 and got the 1000hz, but a just few seconds later I got an emergency stop. Looking at the tachograph later I exceeded the curve slightly at 92km/h.

How would that situation be handled properly? Must I apply the brake before passing the Vr0? Is it normal to need a full brake application? It seems there is no margin at all on the braking curve? Would you control the speed brake with the AFB or use the train brake like I did?

Thanks for your help! Viele Grüße
Zuletzt geändert von Valdez am 22.10.2020 21:36:20, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

F. Schn.
Beiträge: 4586
Registriert: 24.10.2011 18:58:26

Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#2 Beitrag von F. Schn. »

Hi,
Valdez hat geschrieben:When can I increase from 40 to 120? Is it when the back end of the train has passed the (Asig) or Junction (Y)? or must I wait until reaching the next Hp1 signal?
The speed limit of a Asig or Bksig can be increased, when the back end of the train has passed the ¥ (end of point area).
Valdez hat geschrieben:Must I apply the brake before passing the Vr0?
Usually you should do this. 120 km/h is the upper corner of PZB mode 70 / PZB mode M and in Zusi it costs a lot of time to move the break into full apply.
Valdez hat geschrieben:It seems there is no margin at all on the braking curve?
You can set the break not only into "full apply" but also into "zero pereasure" by holding the apply key for 2 seconds. Maybe this is a kind of "margin".
Valdez hat geschrieben:Would you control the speed brake with the AFB or use the train brake like I did?
train break

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Thomas R.
Beiträge: 311
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Aktuelle Projekte: Fahrplanbau, u.a. Lehrte - Harburg und Kassel - Lehrte
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Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#3 Beitrag von Thomas R. »

Hi Valdez,
welcome to Zusi! :schaffner
Valdez hat geschrieben:[...] When can I increase from 40 to 120? Is it when the back end of the train has passed the (Asig) or Junction (Y)? or must I wait until reaching the next Hp1 signal? [...]
To make a long story short:
When you pass an exit signal, you can increase speed when the last car reached the location of the Yen-sign in Ebula.
Within an station - in other words when you passed an entry or intermediate signal - you can increase speed when the last car reached the following signal.

There are more special rules to it and the key word is "anschließender Weichenbereich", see for example here (in German): http://www.tf-ausbildung.de/BahnInfo/weichenbereich.htm
Maybe Google translator can help you getting an idea of the concept.
Valdez hat geschrieben:[...] How would that situation be handled properly? Must I apply the brake before passing the Vr0? Is it normal to need a full brake application? It seems there is no margin at all on the braking curve? Would you control the speed brake with the AFB or use the train brake like I did? [...]
Yes, with a freight train it is advisable to apply the brakes as early as possible. I'm no engine driver but as far as I understand, it is also advisable to use full brake application with freight trains.

I hope this is of help.

Regards,
Thomas
Zuletzt geändert von Thomas R. am 22.10.2020 22:01:42, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

jonathanp
Beiträge: 165
Registriert: 01.06.2015 14:11:25
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Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#4 Beitrag von jonathanp »

When can I increase from 40 to 120? Is it when the back end of the train has passed the (Asig) or Junction (Y)? or must I wait until reaching the next Hp1 signal?
It's at the Y point. If you want to be sure whilst learning, you can use the cheat display, which shows the current permitted speed.
How would that situation be handled properly? Must I apply the brake before passing the Vr0? Is it normal to need a full brake application? It seems there is no margin at all on the braking curve? Would you control the speed brake with the AFB or use the train brake like I did?
The "yellow display" is the state of the electrical braking on the locomotive. On a heavy freight train this will have limited affect. Did you apply the air brakes as well?
It is up to your judgement when you apply the brakes, but I imagine freight drivers would almost always apply the brakes at the earliest possible opportunity. On a long train it takes quite some time for the air brakes to take full effect, and it is indeed tough to beat the PZB safety curve.
You should never use the AFB to do your braking for you*, it will brake harshly and could break the couplings.

*obviously this is a just a game, and you can do whatever you like, but imaging this is real life...
Autor - Zusi 3 C++ Client, http://www.zusidatenbank.de/" target="_blank - Das Zusi3 Addon-Datenbank

Valdez
Beiträge: 6
Registriert: 22.10.2020 21:02:01

Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#5 Beitrag von Valdez »

Thanks everybody for your input so far. I’ve just got a 91.1% which is my best effort yet thanks to your help!

Yes the Yen sign is easy to understand. I assume that if I’m in a larger junction and I pass an Hp1 before the Yen sign I can accelerate after the whole train has passed the Hp1?

Similarly if I get a Hp2+Zs3 for 60km/h, then next a “plain” Hp2 without Zs3 I should then slow to 40km/h?

Thomas - I’ll have a look at that link thanks, I’ve switched out my Learning French audiobook for German so maybe that will help a little bit too ;-)

Jonathan - yes I used the train brake I think. I had a pressure drop in the train pipe and the locomotive brake cylinders showed pressure, although thinking about it I could have accidentally used the AFB instead so maybe that’s part of the problem for me.

Also - I should brake manually rather than AFB even when under LZB or ETCS?
Zuletzt geändert von Valdez am 22.10.2020 22:44:42, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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Thomas R.
Beiträge: 311
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Aktuelle Projekte: Fahrplanbau, u.a. Lehrte - Harburg und Kassel - Lehrte
Wohnort: NRW

Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#6 Beitrag von Thomas R. »

Hi again,
Valdez hat geschrieben:[...] I assume that if I’m in a larger junction and I pass an Hp1 before the Yen sign I can accelerate after the whole train has passed the Hp1? [...]
Yes, that is the second possibility I mentioned:
"Within an station - in other words when you passed an entry or intermediate signal - you can increase speed when the last car reached the following signal." In this case, there is no meaning to the following Yen-sign.
Valdez hat geschrieben:[...] Similarly if I get a Hp2+Zs3 for 60km/h, then next a “plain” Hp2 without Zs3 I should then slow to 40km/h? [...]
Yes.

Regards,
Thomas

Valdez
Beiträge: 6
Registriert: 22.10.2020 21:02:01

Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#7 Beitrag von Valdez »

Thanks Thomas, I’m fact I’ve just been reading that web page you linked and it looks to answer every question I have on signalling at the moment - really useful TVM!

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Zimmer
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Re: Speed Limits and Signals

#8 Beitrag von Zimmer »

Just throwing in a hint / tidbit of advice for decelerating freight trains, especially but not limited to Zusi:

- Before you have to apply the brakes for the frist time, take a quick look at the "composition sheet" (the train data displayed in the 2nd tab of the timetable). Check the value "Bremshundertstel" (= vulgo: brake-percentage, a value indicating how efficient your train might brake). Compare it to the Value "Mbr" (minimum brake percentage) in the time table. The greater the (positive) gap, the more relaxed you may handle the situation.
- A distant signal in warning being passed at maximum speed requires immediate and drastic action: apply a full break instantly. This should be reserved for "surprising" distant signals only though.
Regular deceleration procedure:
- Well before the distant signal, gently remove the traction force and let the whole train calm down and "push" the engine. (During acceleration, the buffers usually don't touch each other, esp. in the front thrid of your train. Removing power will make the tail part press forward and make the buffers connect.)
- If you decide to take the distant signal at warning (a couple hundred yards short of the signal, you ought to decide), decrease the pressure in the main pipe by at least 0.5 bar and wait for this decrease to reach the tail car. This may take a while!
- The train should now lose speed slightly. If judged the distant to the distant signal correctly, you should pass it with the brakes effectively applied and the speed reduced by approx. 10 km/h.
- Most important - even if the distant signal changes its aspect between you applying the brakes and the brakes having started braking, do not immediately release them. (Especially valuable if carrying liquid cargo!). Absolutely you must not, under any circumstance, turn back on traction power.
- Let you eyes wander rapidly from the main signal in the distance (if already visible) to the speed meter and back. Is the train slowing down fast enough for your guts feeling? If not, lower the pressure further. If yes, hands off the brake lever!
- Keep in mind that you need to get the whole bloody thing slower than 65 in PZB-M and under 50 in PZB-U within the respective time (24s/36s). This also applies if the main signal in the mean time changed its aspect from Stop to Proceed!
- Try to get this done with the least fumbling with the brake leaver. It's a leaver not a joystick. Changing your mind multiple times of what you want from your train's brakes will get them confused - and confused brakes cause a multitude of problems.
- Once you came to a standstill (or a tiny bit before that), release the brakes, secure the train with the loco break and wait for the train to release completely. (For a 700m train which you forced to stop by a full break this may take up to 7 minutes, depending on the brakes of the indiviual waggons.) In real life you'll feel the train either pull on or push the loco a tiny bit.

i hope this was to some extent useful - and will help you to close the gap of those missing 8.9% sucessfully.

Regards

Johannes

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