Zs 1 Signale

[LCYCowboy]

Hi guys,

I think I have managed to figure out everything apart from the Zs 1 signale.

I have set Zusi 3 to give me a bit of disruption, and I often come across signals stuck at Red. They have the three white dots (Zs 1) letting me pass using befehl 40.

BUT, how do I know how long I have to stay at 40. I have started using F8 to try and see if I can work out when you can accelerate back up to line speed, but it seems random.

Could someone very patient please explain how long I need to stay at 40 km/h? (I have done some reading, but some sites say until you can see the next Hauptsignal, but the F8 view seems to switch back to line speed well before that).

Thanks again for all your help!

Neil

[oberstrom (Markus)]

Hi Neil,

if you have Zs 1 you have to drive 40 km/h until the end of your train passes the last switch in the following switch area (mostly marked with a "¥"-symbol in the EbuLa). If there is no switch following 40 km/h only apply until the end of your train passes the signal.

[Frisca]

If there is no switch following 40 km/h only apply until the end of your train passes the signal.

... until the front of the train passes the signal. This is one of the few special cases where the speed can be increased before the whole train has passed the point where the speed increase applies.

Basically, the 40 km/h apply as long as any other speed commanded by a main signal would apply. Which is: after an entry signal or an intermediate signal of a station (Einfahrsignal / Esig or Zwischensignal / Zsig) until the train passes the next main signal, or until a planned stop[1]; after an exit signal of a station (Ausfahrsignal / Asig) or a block signal between stations which is followed by switches (Blocksignal / Bksig) until the train passes the last switch; and at a block signal without switches (Selbstblocksignal / Sbk) until the front of the train passes said signal.

[1] As another special case, the until a planned stop part does not apply for Zs1 (or Zs7, or any other "special meassures")

[VMPP]

From what i usually see in the report, for the zs1 red/3 whites, you have to drive at 40 for 1km or untill the rear of the train passes that 1km mark.

You can also check that on lzb lines, like the uelzen line. The lzb only clears to full speed you after the whole train has run 1km distance.
However, on the SFS Gottingen, it clears you to full speed once you pass the signal...

It is for me the most irritating signal... ruins your schedule and it seems that is for nothing special... A red caused by another train, ok, this one, irritating!!!

[snookerfan]

From what i usually see in the report, for the zs1 red/3 whites, you have to drive at 40 for 1km or untill the rear of the train passes that 1km mark.

You can also check that on lzb lines, like the uelzen line. The lzb only clears to full speed you after the whole train has run 1km distance.
However, on the SFS Gottingen, it clears you to full speed once you pass the signal...

It is for me the most irritating signal... ruins your schedule and it seems that is for nothing special... A red caused by another train, ok, this one, irritating!!!

There's a difference between Zs1 (mostly 3 whihte lights) an Zs7 (3 yellow lights).
Zs7 is very common for the Uelzen line.

Zs1 is explained by Frisca very well.
Zs7 ist somewhat different.
The most important difference beeing that you have to drive on sight* and you always have to do so until you passed the next signal and 400m beyond, if you train is shorter that 400m. If you train is longer then until your train has fully passed that next signal.

Zs1 basically says that somehow the signal can't show you a green light for whatever reason (switch/signal not working properly e.g.) but the track is cleared.
With Zs7 it is not guaranteed that the track is free from other trains, obstacles or that everything else is fine. (In Zusi actually it is guaranteed because you can't really simulate such things, but in the real world anything yould happen.)
The reason for the 400m (or train lenght if it is above 400m) beeing that signals don't change back from green to red right after you pass a signal. Sometimes (in the real world) it stays green until the train already is 400m away. So if you're driving on sight and you see a green light ahead of you, you can't be sure if it is for you or maybe another train ahead of you until you really cleared those 400m.


*on sight = max. 40 km/h
in reality 40 km/h is usually only driven in daylight with good visibility
in the night or in bad visibility during the day you might only drive 15 km/h
if the visibilty is so bad you can't see a few meters ahead from you, you should stay still
The reason is that on sight you have to stop ahead of any obstacle that might appear and the later you see it the slower you have to go in order to be able to stop.


And then finally:
It is not guaranteed that the LZB will show you 40 km/h for the exact distance you should drive on sight. It may let you accelerate sooner than you are allowed so be careful with that.

[Frisca]

It is for me the most irritating signal... ruins your schedule and it seems that is for nothing special... A red caused by another train, ok, this one, irritating!!!

Well, as snookerfan explained quite nicely, Zs1 (and Zs7) show if something is broken somehow, such that the interlocking prevents a green light to be shown. As such, it actually is somewhat special: it replaces a written train order you'd have to get in such cases.

The real problem in Zusi is: Zs1/Zs7 appear WAY to often. In the real world, our infrastructure is not as broken as shown by Zusi by a long shot. Zs1 is something you see once in a few months or even years in the real world, but definitely not several times during a single run. As such, it really is something quite special in the real world (also having the implication of knowing that most safety features of the interlocking have been disabled).

If you train is longer [than 400 m] then until your train has fully passed that next signal.

[nitpicking]Really?[/nitpicking]

[Michael Springer]

The real problem in Zusi is: Zs1/Zs7 appear WAY to often.

With Zusi it's just a matter of probability. A timetable with 100 main signals produces at 2% chaos factor simply two times Zs1/Zs7 on average. With 4% and 200 main signals its eight times.
The route search also adheres to the 2%. In 2% of the cases Zusi chooses an alternative track/route, if given/possible.

[snookerfan]

If you train is longer [than 400 m] then until your train has fully passed that next signal.

[nitpicking]Really?[/nitpicking][/quote]
Of course.

"'on sight' until the train has fully passed the next signal, but at least 400 m"
is another way to put it

[VMPP]

From what i usually see in the report, for the zs1 red/3 whites, you have to drive at 40 for 1km or untill the rear of the train passes that 1km mark.

You can also check that on lzb lines, like the uelzen line. The lzb only clears to full speed you after the whole train has run 1km distance.
However, on the SFS Gottingen, it clears you to full speed once you pass the signal...

It is for me the most irritating signal... ruins your schedule and it seems that is for nothing special... A red caused by another train, ok, this one, irritating!!!

There's a difference between Zs1 (mostly 3 whihte lights) an Zs7 (3 yellow lights).
Zs7 is very common for the Uelzen line.

Zs1 is explained by Frisca very well.
Zs7 ist somewhat different.
The most important difference beeing that you have to drive on sight* and you always have to do so until you passed the next signal and 400m beyond, if you train is shorter that 400m. If you train is longer then until your train has fully passed that next signal.

Zs1 basically says that somehow the signal can't show you a green light for whatever reason (switch/signal not working properly e.g.) but the track is cleared.
With Zs7 it is not guaranteed that the track is free from other trains, obstacles or that everything else is fine. (In Zusi actually it is guaranteed because you can't really simulate such things, but in the real world anything yould happen.)
The reason for the 400m (or train lenght if it is above 400m) beeing that signals don't change back from green to red right after you pass a signal. Sometimes (in the real world) it stays green until the train already is 400m away. So if you're driving on sight and you see a green light ahead of you, you can't be sure if it is for you or maybe another train ahead of you until you really cleared those 400m.


*on sight = max. 40 km/h
in reality 40 km/h is usually only driven in daylight with good visibility
in the night or in bad visibility during the day you might only drive 15 km/h
if the visibilty is so bad you can't see a few meters ahead from you, you should stay still
The reason is that on sight you have to stop ahead of any obstacle that might appear and the later you see it the slower you have to go in order to be able to stop.


And then finally:
It is not guaranteed that the LZB will show you 40 km/h for the exact distance you should drive on sight. It may let you accelerate sooner than you are allowed so be careful with that.

Yes, the Uelzen line only gives me the ''yellow'' and never whites.

However, at least from what I've seen on the final report, Frisca is not right.
Example that happened the other day:
I get a Zs1 entering Warburg. Planned stop. So I stop the train. As soon as I get out of the station, speed it up. Boom...100% speed penalty. And the final graph showing the red line on signal speed is exactly the lenght of 1km, covering the distance before the station and some distance after.
I don't know exactly, but to me, driving the 1km plus the lenght of the train is what clears the penalty.
(Ok, yes, I've seen some instances where the red signal line is not 1km in lenght, but those are ultra rare). Like 99% of the times I get the Zs1, which is always , the graph shows the typical 1km restriction.

On the LZB Uelzen, I've done the match watching the LZB graph and it adds up to the same 1km value, untill i get released.

[snookerfan]

Yes, the Uelzen line only gives me the ''yellow'' and never whites.

However, at least from what I've seen on the final report, Frisca is not right.
Example that happened the other day:
I get a Zs1 entering Warburg. Planned stop. So I stop the train. As soon as I get out of the station, speed it up. Boom...100% speed penalty. And the final graph showing the red line on signal speed is exactly the lenght of 1km, covering the distance before the station and some distance after.
I don't know exactly, but to me, driving the 1km plus the lenght of the train is what clears the penalty.
(Ok, yes, I've seen some instances where the red signal line is not 1km in lenght, but those are ultra rare). Like 99% of the times I get the Zs1, which is always , the graph shows the typical 1km restriction.

On the LZB Uelzen, I've done the match watching the LZB graph and it adds up to the same 1km value, untill i get released.

Frisca is right with adding as a footnote:
"[1] As another special case, the 'until a planned stop' part does not apply for Zs1 (or Zs7, or any other "special meassures")"
meaning that everything he says applies except for the part that after a planned stop you can go fast earlier than the next signal

The thing with the 1 km is that most signals (in stations) are approx. 1 km apart from each other. So if you get Zs1 at an entry (Esig) oder intermediate signal (Zsig) you mostly have the restriction of 40 for approx. 1 km.,
(On the Uelzen line (as a special measure to increase capacity) block signals (Bksig, Sbk) too are in an unusual short distance (approx. 1 km) from each other.)

so for Zs1 (white lights):
(I edited out that part which does not apply for Zs1)

Basically, the 40 km/h apply as long as any other speed commanded by a main signal would apply. Which is: after an entry signal or an intermediate signal of a station (Einfahrsignal / Esig or Zwischensignal / Zsig) until the train passes the next main signal; after an exit signal of a station (Ausfahrsignal / Asig) or a block signal between stations which is followed by switches (Blocksignal / Bksig) until the train passes the last switch; and at a block signal without switches (Selbstblocksignal / Sbk) until the front of the train passes said signal.

For the Warburg part:
if you're exiting Warburg northbound (Kassel -> Altenbeken) you enter the station with the entry signal where you get Zs1.
entry signal = 40 km/h applies until you fully passed the next signal. A stop in between does (in this case) not affect said speed limit.

[Frisca]

However, at least from what I've seen on the final report, Frisca is not right.

Well, I guess I should know the rules of the road, shoudn't I. The Zs1/Zs7/train order case is special in that a stop (planned or otherwise) does not prematurely end the "anschließender Weichenbereich" (subsequent switch area?). Or put the other way round: the subsequent switch area after an entry or intermediate signal ends at the next main signal. As a special case, if, and only if, said signal shows a proper main signal aspect (i. e. green and/or yellow lights, not Zs1/Zs7), and the train has a planned stop within the subsequent switch area, the subsequent switch area prematurely ends at the planned stop. If there's more than one planned stop, it ends at the last one.

And yes, this whole topic is one of the trickier parts of the German rules of the road. Particularly in the Zs7 case, where the rule above overlaps with the driving on sight rule.

NB: Ich will das mit der Zuglänge und der 400-m-Regel jetzt nicht auch noch aufdröseln. Vor allem, weil man auf jeden Fall auf der sicheren Seite ist, wenn man mit langen Zügen mit der Zuglänge am Zielsinal vorbeifährt.

[VMPP]

Yes, you guys must know a lot more than I do... as i'm quite beginner on this...

I've started gaming it with chaos at 10%!!! Crazy me!!! As I was only getting Zs1's, hence the speed penalties, I started looking at the graphs, and I can say that most of the time, they show aprox. the 1km. That's why I've always used that distance as a guide to know when to speed up.

But what if I get the Zs1 at the exit signal, Asig and the next one is quite far away. What is the case there? When to speed up?

[snookerfan]

But what if I get the Zs1 at the exit signal, Asig and the next one is quite far away. What is the case there? When to speed up?

As Frisca previously explained:

[...] after an exit signal of a station (Ausfahrsignal / Asig) or a block signal between stations which is followed by switches (Blocksignal / Bksig) until the train passes the last switch; [...]

[Frisca]

And in the case of an Esig, there's another special rule, in addition to what I wrote way above: if the exit signal would normally be able to show a distant signal aspect in addition to the main signal aspect (separate distant signal head below the main signal, or combination signal with a yellow mast plate), you don't know what the next main signal ahead will show when you get Zs1 etc. (because the distant signal head is dark, or the combination signal shows red). Therefore, after your last axle has cleared the last switch, you have to continue at 40 km/h until you can clearly see the next main signal aspect (or a distant signal repeater if there are any), or until you have driven for 2000 m.

[hansjohnson]

Hello,
I want to know what should I do when I see Zs1 under LZB, do nothing or do like PZB?
If I do nothing, sometimes LZB stops the train before Zs1 until I press "PZB Frei" and I should drive the train to pass Zs1 manually, and sometimes keep 40km/h and pass the Zs1.

[snookerfan]

Hello,
I want to know what should I do when I see Zs1 under LZB, do nothing or do like PZB?
If I do nothing, sometimes LZB stops the train before Zs1 until I press "PZB Frei" and I should drive the train to pass Zs1 manually, and sometimes keep 40km/h and pass the Zs1.

There is no Zs 1 under LZB.

Under LZB the signalling on the track shouldn't bother you, just the signalling in your cab matters.

There are two cases in which certain indicators alight:
E40: this is the equivalent to Zs 1, you have to press nothing
V40: this is the equivalent to Zs 7, you have to confirm it pressing PZB Frei

(If the LZB-Block coincides with a real signal then the respective signal will also alight additionally. But this need not be the case.)

[hansjohnson]

Hello,
I want to know what should I do when I see Zs1 under LZB, do nothing or do like PZB?
If I do nothing, sometimes LZB stops the train before Zs1 until I press "PZB Frei" and I should drive the train to pass Zs1 manually, and sometimes keep 40km/h and pass the Zs1.

There is no Zs 1 under LZB.

Under LZB the signalling on the track shouldn't bother you, just the signalling in your cab matters.

There are two cases in which certain indicators alight:
E40: this is the equivalent to Zs 1, you have to press nothing
V40: this is the equivalent to Zs 7, you have to confirm it pressing PZB Frei

(If the LZB-Block coincides with a real signal then the respective signal will also alight additionally. But this need not be the case.)

Thank you very much.
After the whole train pass the signal, should I reset the throttle? I tried just now, when E40, I did nothing, the speed didn't up automatically.

[snookerfan]

Thank you very much.
After the whole train pass the signal, should I reset the throttle? I tried just now, when E40, I did nothing, the speed didn't up automatically.

If I remember correctly this is a bug that sometimes occurs. So better you reset the throttle. Works anyway.