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 Betreff des Beitrags: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 13:23:09 
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Okay, Zusi 3 is a true simulation for signalling driving, but for the game immersion the graphics counts a lot
Really i just drove in Trainsim 2020, but what it lacks in signalling, it gives a more real feel of driving.

Zusi 3 graphics are from the past and obsolete in graphical standards of these days.
Image that Zusi3 get better graphics, then it could be really awesome to play with.


Zuletzt geändert von janamdo am 04.11.2019 17:48:58, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 18:04:13 
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In my honest opinion i prefer the Zusi3 graphics over TS2020 or TSW.

The Zusi3 graphics are sharp and reasonably detailed (for example factory buildings, little bridges). Sure they lack these bloom effects, water effects and the stuttering of TS2020.
Yes, the stuttering, TS2020 runs horrible even on a good PC and if you reduce the settings below "high" settings it looks like a blurry mess and far worse then Zusi3.
Remember, Zusi3 is basically a one person project and the work clearly went into the simulation aspect not so much in the graphics. Despite this, as i said above i actually prefer the Zusi3 graphics as they are sharp and good looking for such a simulator and the performance is great, even on older PCs.

The horrible stuttering and constant reloading of TS2020 is far worse then having less graphical effects.
Or look at TSW and the horrible way trees constantly change the Level of Detail (LOD).
This and the constant stuttering of TS2020 are far more immersion breaking then the less detailed and fancy Zusi3 graphics in my opinion.
Zusi3 is far superior here in my opinion. Its sharp, reasonably detailed and runs smooth.

Lets be honest, ZusiDisplay and a real working Ebula already makes Zusi miles better then TS2020 in terms of the german railroad.
Physics are really bad in TS2020 (breaking/accelerating)...maybe it has fancy Motion Blur but i doubt that alone makes it feel more "real". At least not for me.

People who cant live without fancy effects have to choose TS2020 and its broken signaling.
Yes you can get good 3rd party routes and good 3rd party trains for TS2020 but you will end up paying nearly 60€ for a single route with a single train.
Maybe Zusi4 (if it ever happens) will have more advanced graphic but i highly doubt you will see a graphic update in Zusi3. And as said above, i dont care since i really like the Zusi3 graphics and especially the great performance.

And, last but not least i think Zusi3 is already awesome to play with. The best train simulator commercially available.

What i would like to have in Zusi is seasons and more weather effects besides fog (rain/snow).


Zuletzt geändert von Florian15 am 04.11.2019 18:18:52, insgesamt 11-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 18:38:10 
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Yes, TS2020 is not the right choice for the serious traindriver, searching for more realism and Train sim World (TWS) is better in terms of graphics and driving i think.
Zusi 3 is indeed awesome as you mentioned, but more realistic graphics should be better.

It's teamwork developing a modern looking graphics game and aspecting that one developer can do this all by itself alone ?
Ps: one thing perhaps i can improve in Zusi3 is the buildup of the background train enviroment : i don't like it to see it build up in the screen when i look at the screen


Zuletzt geändert von janamdo am 04.11.2019 18:42:22, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 20:04:10 
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Florian15 hat geschrieben:
In my honest opinion i prefer the Zusi3 graphics over TS2020 or TSW.


The horrible stuttering and constant reloading of TS2020 is far worse then having less graphical effects.
Or look at TSW and the horrible way trees constantly change the Level of Detail (LOD).
This and the constant stuttering of TS2020 are far more immersion breaking then the less detailed and fancy Zusi3 graphics in my opinion.
Zusi3 is far superior here in my opinion. Its sharp, reasonably detailed and runs smooth.


I installed the games on a sdd disk and did not noticed any stuttering yet for TS 2020 or TSW.
Recently installed sdd m.2 disk what fits on the motherboard and is much faster then the default sdd disk speeds.
Installed also ZUsi 3 on the sdd m.2 disk, it makes loading times also faster and no stuttering of course.

An eight core AMD processor ( is not the fastest CPU for calculations ) can handle it.
Plus 16 Mb memory.
Also a decent videocard as a invidea 1050 TI needed as minimum and use a wide screen, but the framerate is not high ( about 30 fps or less)


Zuletzt geändert von janamdo am 04.11.2019 20:10:04, insgesamt 3-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 20:12:13 
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Florian15 hat geschrieben:
Zusi3 is far superior here in my opinion. Its sharp, reasonably detailed and runs smooth.

You've got to be kidding. Zusi 3 looks like a game from the early 2000s – because, technologically, it is. To say it looks better than anything even remotely current is just ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Zusi, because Zusi's focus is clearly not graphics. But we shouldn't kid ourselves (and others) either: every other game on my computer looks way better – while most are actually running smoother than Zusi.

Edit: Oh, and btw., fancy graphics are more than just for the looks: I'm actually having trouble developing something akin to route knowledge in Zusi, and I think the reason is lack of graphical detail.


Zuletzt geändert von Frisca am 04.11.2019 20:18:55, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 21:07:26 
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"every other game runs smoother" but certainly not TS2020 ;)

Every gameplay video of TS2020 i look at stutters like hell from time to time and most of these guys have very high end pcs. On my PC, TS2020 is also stuttering way too much for my taste.

For me, gaining route knowledge is much easier in Zusi since unsually there are far more details included then in standard DTG german routes. Sure if you want to spend 30€ just for a single 3rd party route...and have at least a current 1000€ PC to run TS2020 halfway decent without massive stuttering at slightly over 20FPS...

In my opinion, Zusi3 looks better because the graphics are sharp (not a blurry over saturated mess like in TS2020) and it runs 100% smooth most of the time. In the end that is what counts for me.


Zuletzt geändert von Florian15 am 04.11.2019 21:16:33, insgesamt 6-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 04.11.2019 21:37:44 
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Forget the TS2020 trainsimulator for the serious simulation fan..it serves only as a introduction to train simulation.
The Train Sim World is better in graphics and handling and maybe better optimised for less CPU performance?
Zusi 3 graphics are outdated and i think i can be improved with the use of a modern computer these days


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 05.11.2019 02:16:06 
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Just for clarification, TS2020 is not one of those other games on my PC. I gave up on that series when it was still known as RailWorks, after I found out I could stop a mile long freight train down Horseshoe Curve on a dime. But even back than, it looked way better than Zusi does now, and I can't remember it stuttering much. Anyway, not much point in beating that horse.

Janamdo, the main problem with Zusi's graphics is quite simple: man power. For example, look at Euro Truck Simulator. Back when its developer was a very tiny team, it didn't look much different than Zusi (the original version of Germany simply looked horrible). Now that they are a team of over 100 (I think), recent DLCs look like a whole new game, while the core engine hasn't changed all that much and still runs on DirectX 9 (like Zusi). What a difference a couple of artists can make. As long as Zusi's core dev team is the size of one single man, and graphics artists don't come by the dozens, either (all of which work on Zusi in their spare time, by the way), the look of Zusi won't change much. There's only so much a small team can do.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 05.11.2019 02:55:45 
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And in addition: A large part of what pays the bills is in the "professional" realm, where train operators use Zusi to train (no pun intended) train drivers. In that realm correctness of operational aspects is top on the requirement list and graphical cabailities are quite low. (Just extremely simplified calculation: Assume a good Software Developer Costs 100k per year (including "Lohnnebenkosten" (~20%), administrative costs etc., artificial number just to ease calculation) and Zusi Hobby direct (not AeroSoft/Steam) costs 55.49€ - 19% VAT = ~45€, 100k€/45€ = 2,222 units to sell. That's quite an additional sale the better graphics have to bring to warrant that investment. (And, yes, MBAs, I know, that calculation is too simple, I in fact studied that for a few semesters)

Thus priorities have to be arranged and there was another recent thread in the English forum, where a list of open items was presented. I guess everybody would love better graphics (while there is some subjectivity on what "better" entails and some habits and some "oh, old version worked well on my machine" and ...) but our world always has constraints. Here it is available man power and the fact that they like having food on the table.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 06.11.2019 22:38:14 
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johannes4321 hat geschrieben:
Thus priorities have to be arranged and there was another recent thread in the English forum, where a list of open items was presented. I guess everybody would love better graphics (while there is some subjectivity on what "better" entails and some habits and some "oh, old version worked well on my machine" and ...) but our world always has constraints. Here it is available man power and the fact that they like having food on the table.


Yes, food on table, well i hope that this will be the case, if i look at the userfriendlyness of Zusi3, because this is at a low level.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 06.11.2019 23:04:39 
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janamdo hat geschrieben:
userfriendlyness of Zusi3, because this is at a low level
I don't want to frighten. But the questions and the importance you assign to them is indeed interesting.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 07.11.2019 01:25:56 
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For some other perspective: Yesterday I was listening to a German train driver's podcast https://zugfunk-podcast.de/2019/11/05/zf30/ where they guys state that the Zusi Simulator they use for commercial training is sooo much better in graphics than the competitor in that realm AND it does all the train control systems. That's the benchmark for what pays most of the bills.

(I myself, when having looked at anything "modern" or talk to friends working on AAAA games or other 3D work, and then look at Zusi3 am also ... well, ... not overwhelmed ... after driving a bit and focussing on what matters that mostly goes away, though ... but I also still playing games from the 1990s)


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 07.11.2019 11:24:56 
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johannes4321 hat geschrieben:
(I myself, when having looked at anything "modern" or talk to friends working on AAAA games or other 3D work, and then look at Zusi3 am also ... well, ... not overwhelmed ... after driving a bit and focussing on what matters that mostly goes away, though ... but I also still playing games from the 1990s)


I can recommend "Dwarf Fortress" with the old looking graphics. :] ..a real fun game and deep
Can you imagine that someone has devoted his whole life in the making of this simulator..wow.
There will be soon coming a modern version for Dwarf Fortress PC on steam ?, but it seems rather complicated to port over, it can take a while.


Zuletzt geändert von janamdo am 07.11.2019 13:32:46, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 07.11.2019 17:00:18 
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johannes4321 hat geschrieben:
For some other perspective: Yesterday I was listening to a German train driver's podcast https://zugfunk-podcast.de/2019/11/05/zf30/ where they guys state that the Zusi Simulator they use for commercial training is sooo much better in graphics than the competitor in that realm AND it does all the train control systems. That's the benchmark for what pays most of the bills.
At 02:28:00.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 08.11.2019 09:29:33 
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Frisca hat geschrieben:
Now that they are a team of over 100 (I think), recent DLCs look like a whole new game, while the core engine hasn't changed all that much and still runs on DirectX 9 (like Zusi). What a difference a couple of artists can make. As long as Zusi's core dev team is the size of one single man, and graphics artists don't come by the dozens, either (all of which work on Zusi in their spare time, by the way), the look of Zusi won't change much. There's only so much a small team can do.


It is a bit more nuanced than that. Although both are based on DX9(surely the 'Windows XP' of graphics APIs!), unfortunately Carsten chose to to use a fixed-function pipeline instead of shader based graphics. This means, as I understand it, no lighting, no shadows, no reflections, and no possibility of adding these without rewriting the graphics engine.

BTW, the RailWorks/Train Simulator graphics engine was supposedly 'replaced' at some point, though it's hard to tell exactly how much of that was marketing spin.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 11.11.2019 12:40:44 
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In the podcast they praise Zusi3 especially for its "sharp" graphics. Thats what i also like so much about Zusi3.


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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 11.11.2019 19:43:34 
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I think that Zusi 3 hobby will be a more commercial product in the future, because it is not meant for training anymore
So, that's why the graphics must play a bigger role, with a lower price for the mass

Is Aerosoft company capable of making a higher graphics train environment ?
But perhaps it stays like it is Zusi 3 hobby, but i am truly convinced that with updated graphics the real simulations starts :)

Also the "Cab feel" can be improved too.

All is easy said by me , but it is a lot of programming work


Zuletzt geändert von janamdo am 11.11.2019 19:46:51, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 14.11.2019 14:18:42 
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janamdo hat geschrieben:
I think that Zusi 3 hobby will be a more commercial product in the future, because it is not meant for training anymore
So, that's why the graphics must play a bigger role, with a lower price for the mass


Zusi3 Hobby is already a commercially available software. The professional version (which is very similar) is used for professional driver training.
It makes no sense that that is a reason why "graphics must play a bigger role". For a hardcore niche simulator (train simulators are far more niche then flight simulators) developed by a very small team Zusi3 has already very good graphics. Performance is great. Fundamentally changing the graphics to look more fancy would probably be a huge amount of work and as far as i know neither the original developer or the new publisher Aerosoft has any interest in doing it.

I also dont see why you think the price is to high? Zusi3 as a package is already cheaper then TS2020 or TSW if you look into what you get for your money. You would need to spent many hundred € on TS2020 to get a similar amount of quality routes and rolling stock. Also, there are Sales on Steam for Zusi3, a month ago it was only 47€. Thats really chap for a hardcore niche simulator with that amount of content. People not interested at this price would also not be interested at 10€ or 15€ less. They cant just give away Zusi3 for free...a lot of hard work went into it.

Im convinced that putting hundred of hours of work into improving the Graphics would be a total waste of time. Spending this time improving the simulation, fixing bugs and introducing new routes and rolling stock would be a far better decision and im certain thats what is planed for Zusi3. :)

What would be nice is weather effects (rain/snow) different seasons (winter/summer) and a better "night mode" (brighter nights).


Zuletzt geändert von Florian15 am 15.11.2019 20:24:24, insgesamt 3-mal geändert.

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 Betreff des Beitrags: Re: Graphical surrounding counts.
BeitragVerfasst: 16.11.2019 13:59:49 
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Greetings,

New around here, and waiting for my Zusi 3 Hobby USB to arrive :)

I think that some have not seen and/or played Run 8 v2? It´s not the best in the graphical deparment but as in the case with Zusi 3, what really matters is realisim, at least with the on going rail sim community which have been loyal to these two sims.. I personally prefer realisim to eyecandy. I also own/play TSW 2020 and TANE, TS2015 (x), but physics/traction/friction are quite off with these sims. Yeah very nice looking but that´s about it.

As in the case of FSX/P3D or X-Plane, graphics are ok (unless you buy 3rd party addons), but what it really boils down to is good simulated airframes (PMDG, A2A etc) and decent physics. So some of us are used to losing "some" Immersion vs realisim. Sure Microsoft is working on MFS 2020, but that´s a whole new story/benchmark for any game!

I did like the reference to Dwarf Fortress :D That´s a good example of gameplay vs eyecandy.

If Immersion and eyecandy is your thing, then check out "Star Citizen", if your PC can handle it!

Any how, can´t wait for my USB stick to arrive!

Keep up the great work!

Red (Mike)

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Zuletzt geändert von red2112 am 16.11.2019 14:10:38, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

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