Braunschweig - Wolfsburg

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adamw
Beiträge: 7
Registriert: 29.05.2004 22:02:21

#21 Beitrag von adamw »

Vern hat geschrieben:Thanks for that explanation - I was getting frustrated by having to run at 45 km/h even after the signal was clear
I find INDUSI system very complicated, now after this explanation, it's even more. Anyhow, I "enjoy" an emergency stop by Indusi on every run, no matter how alerted and sharp I try to be.

Adam

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Vern
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#22 Beitrag von Vern »

I just brake down to 40 km/h and keep whacking the Enter key! On some of the traction units you will hear a tone confirming you have successfullty acknowledged it (i.e. hit Enter a second time and no tone).

The real German train drivers must have very sharp reflexes as 1000m (plus sighting distance) is not much distance at all to brake down from 120km/h to zero, certainly not good for passenger comfort. Under 4 aspect signalling here in the UK, signals are generally 1000 - 1500 yards apart so a double yellow (preliminary caution) will give a driver well over a mile to stop, though of course there is no speed enforcement at caution signals in the UK, just the TPWS overspeed sensor and train stop for the red signal itself. I guess TPWS is a cut down version of Indusi!
Zuletzt geändert von Vern am 24.06.2004 20:22:21, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.

Andreas Karg
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#23 Beitrag von Andreas Karg »

Hmm. If you happen to come here to germany you will see that there's not much discomfort in 1000m distance, at least at 120kph. Some years ago I took an InterCity train with a max. speed of 160kph (without LZB) and we ran behind some slower train, perhabs a freight train or so. Every five minutes or so we'd catched up with the train before us and the driver had to brake. This was fun! Braking from 160kph to zero in 1000m, whooosh. And after every time we braked I could smell the hot brakes...

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Roland Ziegler
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#24 Beitrag von Roland Ziegler »

Vern,

as Andi tells, you should be able to stop your train within these 1000m even at 160 kph.

But keep in mind that in reality you can identify the distant signal aspect from a much greater distance than (currently) in the simulation. That will give you a few additional seconds. But even then, I guess you need some sort of subconscious reaction just as you normally have when driving a car.

lightrail
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Registriert: 14.06.2004 04:55:59

#25 Beitrag von lightrail »

[quote="Vern"]I just brake down to 40 km/h and keep whacking the Enter key!

Me too Vern - when I pass a caution, I hit every key on the number pad and a few more just in case. Seems to keep the train running.

When I do get a penalty brake, is there a way to cancel the alarm?

Arie van Zon
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#26 Beitrag von Arie van Zon »

The penalty brake and alarm can be canceled by pressing "Frei" (num .). The newest Indusi-type only reacts when you try this under 30 km/h. After canceling, you have to come to a full stop. If you don't do that yourself, you will be stopped anyway.

The German braking distance surprised me too (but that was already in the Railsim-era). In the Netherlands, 1200-1400 m is the normal distance between distant and stop signal when the line speed is 140 km/h.

/Arie

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Christian Gründler
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#27 Beitrag von Christian Gründler »

Vern hat geschrieben:I just brake down to 40 km/h and keep whacking the Enter key!
Hello Vern,

that's not necessary. Just acknowledge the passing of a 1000 Hz magnet once. (Those magnets are situated at distant signals and at warning boards; they should be visible to the right side of the rails, but in Zusi sometimes aren't :( .) Pressing Enter more often doesn't have any effect (dependent on the type of PZB you may hear the buzzer, but that's all).
Vern hat geschrieben: certainly not good for passenger comfort.
It's not that bad. The formula for even acceleration (or braking) is v = sqrt ( 2 * b * x ) where v is the velocity, b the acceleration and x the lenght. Let's calculate:
  • 160 km/h is 44 m/sec
  • suppose the brakes are fully applied after 5 seconds
  • in this time the train has travelled 220 m, therefore 780 m of braking distance are left
  • if we assume the train is still travelling at full speed, we have to calculate 44 = sqrt ( 2 * b * 780) or b = 44 * 44 / 1560 = 1.24 m/sec2.
This is certainly acceptable compared to the lateral acceleration of 1.3 m/sec2 which is allowed in France for trains travelling through curves. In reality the result will be even better (for the passengers), as I didn't take into account the partial application of the brakes in the first seconds of braking. (I'm sure Tom Gabler has the necessary formulas at hand :) ....)

Regards,
Christian

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Vern
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#28 Beitrag von Vern »

And of course ultimately the Indusi will take over and stop the train, if the driver doesn't. A few years ago, we were on a train from Hamburg to Koln and it made a rather sudden stop - probably the Indusi going in.

Know what you mean about France - whenever I've travelled by train there I've always raised an eyebrow at the rather flamboyant speed at which curves are taken (accompanied by lots of squealing and grinding). By contrast in the UK, curves usually have very cautious speed limits and other than really tight curves it is rare to hear any rumbling or grinding as the train passes through.

Jason-M
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Registriert: 20.12.2003 16:21:21
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#29 Beitrag von Jason-M »

Having myself been to France not that long ago I also know what you mean about trains taking curves. We travelled on a night service from Lille Flanders to Nice and boy did it fly around those curves, trying to sleep in a couchette with your body sliding up and down in the bed is a funny experience.
When we finally got off the train it felt as if I was swaying for a least a couple of days afterwards.
All good fun.
--
Jason M

HLE 1806
Beiträge: 65
Registriert: 26.06.2004 14:02:26

#30 Beitrag von HLE 1806 »

Vern hat geschrieben:I just brake down to 40 km/h and keep whacking the Enter key! On some of the traction units you will hear a tone confirming you have successfullty acknowledged it (i.e. hit Enter a second time and no tone).
As Christian said, just make sure that you hear the tone and see the yellow 1000 Hz indicator light up. Of course, then you need to know the check speeds for your train, which will depend on the type of PZB (Indusi) equipment installed, and on the brake class setting. When in doubt, check for these data in the "Fahrplaneditor" before you proceed to drive.
The real German train drivers must have very sharp reflexes as 1000m (plus sighting distance) is not much distance at all to brake down from 120km/h to zero, certainly not good for passenger comfort. Under 4 aspect signalling here in the UK, signals are generally 1000 - 1500 yards apart so a double yellow (preliminary caution) will give a driver well over a mile to stop, though of course there is no speed enforcement at caution signals in the UK, just the TPWS overspeed sensor and train stop for the red signal itself. I guess TPWS is a cut down version of Indusi!

Well, sure, you do need to act quickly after an Indusi check, but it's not that hard to do. Not that I were a driver in the real world, but I believe it's quite safe to assume that it's all well within human capacity ;D .
Moreover, remember that your average desktop screen is limited by its maximum resolution, which is a disadvantage that doesn't exist in the real world. In good weather, you can, in fact, recognize the signal aspects from quite a long distance. In Zusi, when in doubt, don't hesitate to zoom in on the upcoming signal by pressing "Z" .

I cannot really comment on the British TPWS system, but I seem to remember that it also provides a warning function at distant signals? At least that's how it was in BVE :D .

Jason-M
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#31 Beitrag von Jason-M »

jadefalcon2259 hat geschrieben:I cannot really comment on the British TPWS system, but I seem to remember that it also provides a warning function at distant signals? At least that's how it was in BVE :D .
You are getting confused with the Automatic Warning System (AWS) which is a simpler system fitted to most signals and speed restriction advance warning boards.

TPWS is only fitted to signals(not all) speed restrictions( only where there is a great reduction in speed) and buffer stops in terminus stations.
--
Jason M

HLE 1806
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#32 Beitrag von HLE 1806 »

Alright, I didn't know that...thanks! :) I figure that means AWS cannot initiate a penalty brake?

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Christian Gründler
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#33 Beitrag von Christian Gründler »

Jason-M hat geschrieben:You are getting confused with the Automatic Warning System (AWS)
Hello Jason,

TPWS is AWS + overspeed detectors. Please have a look at http://www.thales-communications.ltd.uk ... /index.htm! If a train is equipped with AWS only, this is fully operative on a line equipped with TPWS. (EDIT: of course the overspeed detectors do not work in this case.)
jadefalcon2259 hat geschrieben:I figure that means AWS cannot initiate a penalty brake?
It certainly can - if you do not acknowledge the warning ;) .

Regards,
Christian
Zuletzt geändert von Christian Gründler am 28.06.2004 21:00:06, insgesamt 2-mal geändert.

Jason-M
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#34 Beitrag von Jason-M »

All trains have to have AWS and TPWS fitted in the UK but not all signals have AWS or TPWS.

Info on TPWS
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/sigtxt7.html

Info on AWS
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnica ... 1.html#AWS
--
Jason M

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Christian Gründler
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#35 Beitrag von Christian Gründler »

Hello Jason,

after a close examination of all aforementioned websites I think that you are right – TPWS doesn't include AWS. Nevertheless there is only one control unit on the train to process the signals of both AWS and TPWS. And at the track TPWS is found (most?) often together with AWS. I was probably confused by the name "Train protection and warning system", as TPWS applies the brakes unconditionally (if necessary) without warning the driver first (as does AWS).

Regards,
Christian

Arie van Zon
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#36 Beitrag von Arie van Zon »

Since when has TPWS been used? On our class 58, I found a AWS unit, but no TPWS (the loco is not in the UK anymore).

/Arie

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Christian Gründler
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#37 Beitrag von Christian Gründler »

Arie van Zon hat geschrieben:Since when has TPWS been used?
Installation of the system started in 1999 or 2000, but of course it took some time to equip tracks and locomotives.

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